JORDAN WILLIAMSON INTERVIEW
Jordan Williamson is Commercial Director at CSM Sport & Entertainment. CSM are a global integrated marketing and brand experience agency working across sport and entertainment.
Jordan is also founder of FACE OF THE BRAND, a website that profiles brand ambassadors, exploring partnerships from the perspective of the athlete and the brand.
JORDANS’S BUILD THE INVISIBLE CHAT HIGHLIGHTS
The Unfinished Product
I think showing value and providing knowledge but also being able to admit that you don't know everything is a fine balance to strike.
Listening
One of my bosses earliest pieces of advice, which he said pretty bluntly, was ‘you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason’.
Consistency
…it's not until you undertake something like that [running 10km for 100 days], having to do something every day, that you understand and appreciate the difficulty [of being consistent].
DG
Jordan, thank you so much for joining me on this chat, we've probably known each other for a couple of years now and I’ve always really enjoyed our conversations, your book recommendations, and our joint podcast recommendations. I was really interested to chat to you about the book idea that I’ve been talking a little bit about; the title is “Build the Invisible” and I’m what interested in is, exploring this idea around How to build your knowledge base? How do you go about developing your network? How do you get into the industry?
I know we're in sports but if its music, TV, film, fashion or whatever else it might be; any industry of your choice that you've got a passion for and want to delve into more, which you have a motivation for. You’re obviously making your way taking great strides in the sports and entertainment space. How did you go about doing what you're doing now?
A lot of people have said how they were lucky because they were in the right place at the right time, and I’m always interested in this idea of luck but before we get into that, maybe you can explain how you managed to find that pathway and how you went about doing it, by chance or by strategy or a combination of it all?
JW
I think it's definitely a combination of the two. To start with, this wasn't ever where I thought I’d end up or what I’d be doing. It's just one of those things that I think life has a funny way of presenting you opportunities that you can either take or leave.
DG
What did you want to do then? What was your idea?
JW
I didn't know is the honest answer. I’ve always loved my sport; playing it, watching it, but equally, I loved school and loved my academics. I went on to study physics and maths at university, again, not really knowing what I wanted to do with that but I figured it was something I was quite good at and found quite interesting.
In the top 25 Ted Talks, there's one on education that everyone should watch because for me, that just hits the nail on the head. I was lucky in that academics and exams all just worked for me. I was quite good at memorising formula, which was basically what you had to do to excel in those subjects at that point, so that dictated that path for me and suddenly, I found myself at uni enjoying it, loving it and almost putting off that ‘what's next’ thought.
When I was back home one summer, I chatted to my dad and he kept politely insisting ‘you should get some work experience’ and I was like ‘but I just want to go on holiday, or whatever, but okay cool’. So I was like right okay, I guess if I’m studying maths, I’ll do something finance-y because that’s where it naturally led. I was fortunate enough to be able to do some voluntary work experience as I lived within commuting distance of London. I know not everyone has those opportunities.
So I was planning on doing some free work experience and to get myself ‘in somewhere’ to, I don’t know… organize someone's paper clips or whatever they have you doing; making cups of tea. I figured that I’d want to do it somewhere interesting at least and pretty much everywhere has a finance department so you just have to scan the opportunities. I was searching for sports agencies or just sports because I didn't even really know what an agency was at the time.
Funnily enough, a lot of people normally get in touch to work with the athlete management team, or the brands team but very few people actually want to come and do work experience for the finance team. I think they were actually really glad to have an extra set of hands and were almost a bit shocked that I was asking to help with the finance side of things. They were like ‘are you sure you've not got the wrong department’ or whatever. I think that was again a bit of luck, bit of timing and a bit of opportunity.
The next element of luck to come into it was that, at the time I was doing two weeks work experience so again, just helping with a lot of the admin, inputting data etc. But the finance team sat next to the athlete management team, and one of the guys I was working with did a lot of the finance for the players the agency managed.
Starting a new job, everyone tells you to go in, be enthusiastic, talk to people, listen in to what everyone's saying. I just got chatting to the people around me and I was lucky enough that they were all open to have conversations and give me the time of day. There would be work drinks Fridays where you would start to, humanise and engage with people, and make yourself a person rather than just the ‘work experience kid’. I guess this is where the luck falls away and you have to start thinking like ‘okay this is quite interesting, I didn't know this existed, how can I provide value?’
They must get work experience people through the door every week of the summer, so how can I leave my mark? And the thing that came up quite a lot in those couple of weeks, was social media. This was when social media was really starting to kick in and a lot of the agents just in that week alone had calls from their players being like ‘what's this twitter thing about'. I heard a few failed attempts at responding to that question, and just by the nature of being a bit younger, I had a bit more of a foundation of what social media was, what it was becoming and how it was working.
So that was like little light bulb moment. I was like ‘okay cool, this is where I can maybe help’. So I started to chat to the guys and ask if there was anything I could do to be useful. I ended up coming up with a cheat sheet for Twitter; really simple stuff which now, everyone takes for granted. At the time setting up a twitter account and being asked what is twitter? What is a hashtag? There was all these things that were completely foreign to rugby players, footballers or other athletes. So just by creating some materials, that then meant, that they invited me back at the end of the summer to complete that work.
There's certain rules about how many weeks you can do work experience so they said to come back in September time, when it’s a bit more relevant for sport and that it'd be really good to have me back for a couple of weeks and that’s where went. I did a couple more weeks, got to know everyone a bit more and then yeah, I went and did my final year of uni and didn't really think about it again after that.
To be honest, I always wanted to go traveling and thought that's good, I’ve got that there just in case anything comes but still the penny didn't quite drop that this could be a real, serious career opportunity. I actually wanted to go to Canada and do a ski season so I didn't really give the CSM or career element too much thought. I think again, that might have been another bit of luck, or a bit of a blessing that I almost didn't try too hard to force being in touch but I always knew it was smart to stay in touch with people so I would find reasons to connect. I was never asking for anything, I never actually asked for a job or asked for anything from them, I always just got in touch when something relevant came up and I think that again probably served me quite well.
When I graduated, I got in touch with a lot of people saying ‘I graduated, just to let you know, I survived uni and now I’m gonna try and take on the big, bad world’ and again, this is probably my biggest element of luck to the story because someone had just handed in their notice from the team so there was a gap. The value I’d provided before for allowed them to consider me and invite me in to have a chat and see if I was interested. You sat in an office which has got an F1 car in the in the foyer, everyone's just chatting sport and there's big screens of Sky Sports on everywhere and someone's asking you if you're interested in working there. I was like okay I guess traveling can wait, Canada’s not going anywhere. It felt like this was meant to be so, I took the opportunity with both hands and have been there ever since to now, four years later.
DG
I’d be fascinated to dig into a few things. I was just writing notes on a couple of things you were saying and taking it in slightly different directions because it's interesting that a lot of people I’ve spoken to so far have mentioned timing and luck, and I always think a bit of that is a self-deprecating where I think it does play a part, in that you've got to put yourself in the best position to be able to get luck and take advantage.
For example when you said that you chose the finance team of a sports agency, I can't imagine anybody would have done that but actually, it's a great tactic; finding the department in a particular area that interests you and going from there, which I find brilliant. If the player rep team sits next to the finance department and you then start networking from within, rather than being that external person that doesn't know how an organization works.
I almost think it’s the thinking outside the box and being like ‘well I’ll just go’ because like you said, they didn't understand why you would want to go and get work experience there. It's actually a really good tip of, you find the course with the least resistance. The other thing that you talked about which I’ll be really interested to hear your views on, is the luck and timing of when that person resigned and then there was that job opportunity.
I think firstly, and correct me if I’m wrong but if you hadn’t done a good job first of all, and you hadn't kept in touch and come back and showed value, and hadn’t emailed them to say by the way I finished university and them saying oh actually, we've got possible job role for you. You might not think it but in my mind that's a hell of a lot of proactivity on your part which you class as luck, which I think is quite a different thing.
JW
I think that's where the combination comes in. I think you can make your own luck to an extent but I also think you do need a little bit of it. Even if that person had handed in their resignation a month earlier, they might have hired someone before me or vice versa so there is a little element of that but like I said, you've got to lay the groundwork and you've got to be prepared that when those few things do align, then you can go for it. It’s not always going to be the case and it's always going to happen first time but at some point it will and it's just believing in that as well.
DG
Can I ask about the other point that you talked about which is you know, some of the book and some of these talks I think would hopefully be of real value especially when talking to people like yourself, for when people are going into companies for the first time and trying to make the right impression. You were talking about how you would do that internal networking, you would start building relationships with people and you'd be inquisitive. You mentioned the example with twitter, are there particular things that you were thinking about that you can recall from that time of being like, right I need to be really proactive in certain ways and how to go about not making a name for myself in the business but just building relationships enough to understand how things are working?
JW
Exactly as you said, trying to offer some value for sure.
You just find a common ground with people and I think you make yourself a human being. One of the things that I’m aware of is I need to get better at being a bit more vulnerable and a bit more open with people because when you first go in there you don't want to show any weaknesses, you want to be this finished, polished product that they can be like, yeah that fits perfectly in our organization. I think showing value and providing knowledge but also being able to admit that you don't know everything is a fine balance to strike; your own personality will shine through.
I think this goes more to when I first started, I remember being sat in meetings and feeling like ‘oh my god I haven't said anything yet’, ‘I need to say something otherwise what people will think’, ‘I don't know anything’ or whatever and then you almost find yourself saying something for the sake of saying something. One of my bosses earliest pieces of advice which he said pretty bluntly was ‘you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason’ he said, especially at the start, just listen. He said if you've got something to say, say it and when you do it will then be impactful but for now don’t worry about having to say something. Just take in as much as possible, no one's expecting you to have the answers or to say anything so just learn and take it all in.
DG
I hope you don't mind me asking because a lot of that seems to be questioning how do you fit in? Or not fit in?
JW
That's what a lot of it is because all businesses is, are people. I do a lot of selling, a lot of sales and at the end of the day, it comes down to people and a CMO in one place might move to another company and become a CMO at another place and it's not uncommon to find that say ex CMO used to sponsor Chelsea football club and then moves to somewhere else and suddenly this company sponsors Chelsea football club, it's people as well.
I think finding commonalities with people and going back to that when you're first going into a business, just try to be interested in people, ask them about their families, what they do when they're not at work; they speak about work all day so it's okay to ask non-work related questions too because then you have something in common. If you remember that stuff, that's even better because then the next time you can really relate to them. I think that's also taking those opportunities when you are there, to network and communicate with people whether that be in a pre-Covid world, after work drinks or the first thing I did was find out if they played five-a-side football which luckily they did and so I was like, I want to get involved with that because the best way to make mates and get to know people is through playing sport, in my opinion.
In my experience some of the best mates I have made have been through playing sports. I was like, if I can start playing sport with the people around me then that just levels you up and it gives you something to chat about that's a bit more light-hearted.
DG
I completely agree. As our friendship developed, you started giving me some good book recommendations like: Daniel Pinks - To Sell Is Human which is one of my favourite books and actually something I refer to quite a bit in one of my chapters, similar to the bit where he talks about the word, yet. You haven't done something, yet, is not a consequence. It's almost like, just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's not going to happen and that yet word becomes very optimistic in his approach which I really liked.
JW
For sure! Have you have you read Atomic Habits by James Clear because there's a lot of similarities. I love James Clear, his newsletter and stuff I think it's brilliant and I find a lot of that trickles through. I thought he's either very similar minded to Daniel Pink or he's also read it.
DG
I completely agree, I’ve got this app called Blinkist and they had Atomic Habits on there, which I really enjoyed. There's another guy called B.J. Fogg who is a Harvard professor and he talks about why habit forming is so difficult and quite a nice segue into what we're going to talk about in a second all around motivation, which a lot of the time is actually inherently linked to your own personality. I.e. you can be very motivated but sometimes find it quite difficult to be motivated over a long period of time. Fogg talks about trying to make very small changes into established habits, so for example, his example is a bit of an odd one but quite good at the same time. He said whenever he wanted to lose a bit of weight and become more physically fit, every time he went to the toilet, he would do two push-ups afterwards which I really liked and it sort of resonated to the extent that I actually do that now. I’ve literally got my yoga mat there because I know that if I have it out, I’m more likely to do it.
The bit I’d like to ask you on habits is around what you did over the duration of lockdown, which was the forming of a new habit, even though you were really into your exercise and football and other outdoor activities, I’ll let you say but you ran for a hundred days straight, is that right?
JW
Yeah, so I did 10k every day for 100 days!
DG
That is absolutely fantastic! You also took pictures of yourself each day on which numbers you were on.
JW
Yeah that was quite funny actually because it was one of those things that I never really knew what it was going to become. The numbers started off as purely for my dad, I used to send a picture to him every morning which I thought was quite a nice thing and then I was like, oh, if I ever get around to putting this anywhere, I’ll use them.
I read a lot around consistency and habits at the time and I was quite interested in seeing how consistent I could be with something or a consistent challenge because it's not until you undertake something like that of having to do something every day that you understand and appreciate the difficulty and it's usually at the point that you give up that you never really get past that point and so I was like, I need to set this as a target. With it being during lockdown, it helped me set a routine and it kept me sane through lockdown and then it grew from there and people became interested. I managed to raise some really good money for some good causes as well, so something that came from me sending pictures of numbers to my dad, and then getting halfway, I like I might be able to do this, so then I started telling a few more people.
DG
Can you tell me about that consistency and difficulty? I think that's exactly the point which I’ve read quite a lot about. Was there any points where you were thinking I just can't be bothered but I’m still going to do it? What was the motivation in your brain? Was it a positive, I’ve got to do it? Or was it a negative that I don't want to let someone down or I should keep doing it because I’d be embarrassed? I’m fascinated into the element of a habit becoming a positive art or trying to satisfy a negative insecurity.
JW
I think the reason I didn't tell many people to start with is because I didn't want that to be my motivation. I didn't want to be motivated. I wanted it to be something that I knew I could do for me and so I thought that was quite interesting to be like okay, I want to see how and what motivates me to get up in the morning and to do this I don't want to be plastering it all over social media. With lockdown, there wasn't much else going on so it was a really positive thing to get me out of the house in the mornings.
I was running, I was feeling good, it was summer, the weather was nice, I was like oh this isn't so bad and then it probably hit day 20 so I’d done twenty 10k runs and I mean, there's only so many directions you can run from your flat! It was just the monotony of it was suddenly kicking in and I tried to do different things like doing different repeats so one mile quicker than the others and all that. I tried to mix it up as best I could but it comes to a point where you are just doing the same thing over and over again and so yeah, that became really tough.
Around day 20 or so it suddenly dawned on me that I was like right, if I want to hit that 100 I’ve got another 80 days to go and I stupidly did the calculation in my head and it wasn't until July that I would complete it and I was thinking what have I done? It was almost at that point with no return. I can't remember who phrased something like this to me or whatever the quote was but it was something like, if I stop now and if I ever want to do this again, I’ve got to run 20 plus 80. Whereas, if I just keep going now all I’ve got to do is run 80. It's like I’m already at that point where I might as well just get on with it and I’m lucky that I like running.
It reinforced a load of positive habits like listening to podcasts, getting outside in the morning which is one of my big ones. I hate going straight from bed, to eating breakfast and then sitting at my desk. I’ll always try and get out for a walk, or a run, or a cycle even if it's five, ten minutes, I just find getting outside a really positive thing; even if it's raining or whatever, I find that once you're out there, it's usually not that bad. We live in London, we don't live in arctic conditions too frequently so yeah that was the motivator for me.
It was probably a balance of the two elements where I don't want to let myself down, I don't want to let my dad or my small group of friends down and have the embarrassment factor of being like I didn't do it and again, that pride. They see me as the one who likes running and being active and then suddenly that meddles with your identity a little bit. You go through all the doubts like can I do this? Oh my it's harder that I thought or it's boring, you probably have a bit of a negative cycle and then you flip it on its head and be like actually, this is really cool and this actually gives me something else to talk to people on work calls that isn't Covid.
I’ve listened to as many podcasts as I’ve done runs now. When would I ever have listened?! It would have taken me ages to get through 20 podcasts but I’ve done 20 podcasts in 20 days now. I’d get in and I’d do some stretching or do the stuff you're supposed to do after a run because of the extra time without the commute. I think once I talk myself out of those slightly negative areas, I then just focused on thinking, right this is a really cool and positive thing.
It then just so happened that my neighbour was working with the Tribe foundation who do a lot against modern slavery and I told him what I was doing and he said how this would be an amazing thing to partner up with Tribe on and I didn't really know about them or what they're up to at the time so again, a bit of luck and a bit by chance we got chatting and then we started to use it as a platform to raise some money. They do lots of running and cycling things, they've got a good community and once you've got that good cause underpinning everything, it's like hey I can't let them down, this is for a really good cause so let's crack on.
Then as lockdown eased slightly it became a really nice thing because my friends would come join me for runs and it became a bit more of a social element as well. On the last run, we did it in little pods and did some laps of Battersea Park and it was great. I think a blend of negative and positive but trying to quickly shove the negative ones aside and just build on the positive I guess.
DG
I really like that idea. I’ve written a bit about it in the book that I’m trying to work through which is that bit about, you know when you've got something to talk about because it forms a greater part of your identity. By forming a greater part of your identity, you're more invested in what you're doing whether it's positive, negative or however it contributes.
One of my parts is if you're going to be reading three pieces of content today about your industry or the industry you want to get into, by day 30, you would have read a decent amount of really interesting stuff but then when you're speaking to someone at a networking event, you won’t just be bullshitting, you'll actually be coming from a place of some authority because you've had to think long and hard about what you're doing; in the same way that when you're doing something for yourself, that intrinsic motivation and ownership becomes that much greater.
It seems like you're quite good at being quite focused and habit-forming. Have there been other things that you've done, if there's a particular behaviour or a habit or a belief that's changed you in a positive way? Even if it's a small thing in your life or something in your work or life environment?
JW
In the last couple of years I’ve really started to delve in and become really interested in the kind of stuff we're chatting about. I appreciate the word ‘stuff’ is a pretty broad word but I think anyone who's interested in it knows what I mean by this stuff and that's your habits, your reading and all that sort of thing. I guess the one thing I wish I had have done was have someone throw a load more books at me at university that weren't to do with my subject and were more to do with productivity and habits and careers and all the rest of it. I just wish I’d started digesting all that sooner but better later than never is always the way.
I think one of your questions was something about what would you put on a billboard to other people and I’d say to just read more books, whether that's through Blinkist or through whatever medium there is. I’ve found a really good podcast that's called ‘What You Will Learn’ and it's basically Blinkist but in a podcast form where people chat for 15-20 minutes about what's in the book, so you don't have to read entire books because that's quite daunting. I think just consume and always be open to learning and reading which is something I wish I really got on board with a bit sooner. All my mates make fun of me for reading loads of self-help books but I just wish I’d read some of those sooner. I’m far from perfect, sometimes I’ll go a month without reading or sometimes I’ll get through a load of books.
With my five aside team, we realized that we couldn't play five aside because of lockdown so one of the girls suggested we started a book club which almost feels like the opposite of playing five aside but it was brilliant and again, it was an opportunity to read books that I would never pick off the shelf, they’re very much like storybooks but I think any kind of reading is just really worthwhile because it then comes through into your language and I think people forget we're writing emails and texts and WhatsApp’s all day so what you read is always going to influence how that comes across. I think reading is a massive one for me.
My big one is getting outside. For me it’s really important to stay active and start the day off right. I think I’m pretty rubbish in the evenings so I tend to get out quite early and usually by the evening, I’m completely wiped out. I know some people find the evenings to be most productive but for me, that's when I like to wind down. The mornings are like my sweet spot, so I like making the most of those mornings by getting up and getting outside to start the day.
I peak and trough with doing a bit of the headspace app and trying to write in the mornings. I’m not perfect, I don't always get around to doing it every day but then I’m getting better at not beating myself up about that either, just do it when you can and if you do it three times a week, it's better than not doing it at all.
I’m just a massive fan of writing. I love writing with a pen and paper so I have a stack of plain sheets of paper and then at the beginning of the day I just write things down. Especially the way our industry is and like you mentioned, you've got loads of reading to get through and you just get pulled left right and centre so you find it's really hard to stay focussed on one thing and you suddenly find that you've started 10 different things. It doesn't always happen but I try and write the three meaty things I have to get done that day and that's like one of the oldest tricks in the book but I find that if you write them down it really helps. I put them at the top of my page and at the end of the day, I visit them and if I haven't done them, that's fine they just go back to the top of the list for tomorrow. I think it just gives you a bit of focus.
Emails are the worst thing ever, they just get you pulled left, right and centre so I do my best to; if I’m focused on something then my phone goes away, emails away that sort of thing and just get what I need to get done. These are all ideals, they don't always come off and sometimes things come up as we all know with work and whatever else but yeah you just have to try your best to implement these things and hopefully over time they come through and keep you working towards whatever you're aiming towards.
DG
It’s interesting because I read a bit of the Dan Pink book that you recommended and he‘s also wrote a book, I think it's like it's called ‘When’ or something like that, and it's all to do with productive periods of the day for different people, so I know from my experience I’m pretty good from about 7.30-8 o'clock when I need to draft and have some proper headspace till 11-12 up to lunch and then after lunch I try and have more meetings and calls to keep myself going a bit because I know that's a difficult lull for my brain and then usually after about five o'clock, I’m quite good again and I quite like having that space of about 9 to 11pm just to have that time to do whatever I want to do.
JW
I think it evolves as your life evolves right so when you have kids or whatever that might be, it changes things. I think it's also being open to changing and trying to realize when those best times are for you.
DG
I think that's a very cool. I totally agree on the great billboard you mentioned which is to read books. I haven't had anything as blunt as that yet which is read more books. I think Marcus Rashford would be agreeing with you right now is the truth and I think you've got to start in small ways but I always think the other thing that you were saying about you wish it started earlier. I just wonder whether you might not have had the same urge or passion to do it, it's almost like the timing thing where it happens now for that reason maybe?
JW
Absolutely. I just think I could have used when I was revising at uni and stuff so it was more the fact I could have applied it practically but then again, you're slammed enough as it is trying to study for your degree and all the rest of it, you then don't want to be the person that's not socializing and sat in your room reading a book. I didn't want to be that person anyways, each to their own but yeah, like you say timing's everything.
DG
Jordan, it's been great to chat, I’m sorry we've gone on for a bit longer than expected but it was really good to hear some of your experiences and how things started off, those interesting motivations and habits and then that billboard; I think that might feature prominently.